If I lived in and was subject to, US domestic law I would agree. I do not live in nor am I subject to said same.
Legally copyrighted is a whole other ballgame.
--
Mark M. Kahle H.
-- On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 7:20 PM, dick <rhomp2002@earthlink.net> wrote:
And so you expect the government which classifies this material to send copies of it to the appropriate international council to get it copyrighted. How stupid is that. Whether you think it is a CYA cover your ass situation or not, it is classified for a reason and you are not in a position to determine if that is valid or not. You really don't know if it is to CYA or if it is to cover material that completes the knowledge of something that needs to be classified. You cannot just make that determination without all the material and you cannot have access to all the material. That is why I said the guy who released this info to Wikileaks should be sent to jail for life and the Wikileaks proprietor should also be held responsible for what he does with the material. As I said there are probably security treaties between the nations of Europe and the US which should cover this situation and permit Wikileaks to be stopped.
I know that if I had relased even one document with a classification which this creep gave to Wikileaks, I would have been in Leavenworth so fast my head would be spinning. That they are letting this go on just as they let that Clinton NSC steal documents from the National Archives is beyond the pale.
On 10/23/2010 07:57 PM, Mark wrote:And your last paragraph is exactly what is wrong with the system... Its' called CYA cover your ass. The amounts of classified material in the vaults is there ONLY because some no account know nothing clerk says it should be so he does not have to deal with anyone that may read it and call him on it.
ALL the laws that you quoted are USA laws, they do not pertain to anyone but US citizens and or people on US soil. If they want an international copyright let them apply for it in the manner prescribed for in the appropriate conventions with the appropriate international council. Send a copy and see if it flies.--
On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 5:45 PM, dick <rhomp2002@earthlink.net> wrote:
If it is classified by the owner of the information then this is at least as powerful as copyright. Even if you are cleared to receive classified materials to the highest degree, if you have no need to know the information nor if it pertains to anything you are working on then you are obligated to inform the person with the information that you are not cleared to receive that info. That is in the UCMJ. If a reporter is being handed this then they also have that obligation. That is why the reporters of the NYT who released that classified materials over the years should have been arrested and charged. That would depend on what the treaties concerning classified info between our government and the government where he is located. He would then be subject to arrest based on that treaty.
If he has classified material, important to us or not, then that fact is sufficient to make him subject to arrest.
That is right; it may mean nothing at all. However it is not up to you to determine that it means nothing at all. It is up to the individual who applied the classification to decide if it is important or potentially important, not you.
On 10/23/2010 07:30 PM, Mark wrote:
On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 5:04 PM, dick <rhomp2002@earthlink.net> wrote:
The problem is not whether this is important; the problem is that this classified material in the first place.
Classified by and for whom?? It does not fall under any law that he is subject to unless he sets foot on US soil.Are we supposed to wait until this creep releases classified material that is important to stop him?
Preemptive strikes are always the way to go. Lets throw everyone that may steal something someday in jail.The other problem is that what might not be of importance to the Pentagon might be of paramount importance when added to what the enemy already knows.
When I was in the service bck in the JFK days and working in the intelligence area, we kept track of things like today there were 10 trucks passing on this road in Cuba, yesterday there were only 7, what does this mean in the scope of things. Might be nothing, might mean they were stepping up the transport of special goods to a secret place. Intelligence like this led to our discovery of the missiles in Cuba. Yet the intelligence might have meant nothing to the Cubans. That is why the release of this info is important and must be stopped.
Then again it may mean NOTHING at all...
On 10/23/2010 01:58 PM, THE ANNOINTED ONE wrote:
Bear,
If you do nothing that needs to be hidden or that you are ashamed of
there is no threat. The official Pentagon comment on the last release
was that it contained nothing of importance. Just how is releasing
"nothing of importance" (a seemingly small fact left out of your
posted article) the act of a traitor??
Further, US law, US tradition, US ideals and or anything else US
applies only on US soil. Live with it.
On Oct 23, 11:33 am, Bear Bear<thatbear...@gmail.com> wrote:
A surprisingly frank, for the times, look at the idiot behind Wikileaks.
Personally I think the guy is a traitor. My lefty neighbour says he is not a
traitor as he leaked U.S. documents and he is an Aussie.
Well, the Australians have soldiers in this war too. And his actions have
endangered them. As well as my Canadian countrymen and friends serving in
Afghanistan.
He is paranoid about the CIA. (time for the aluminum foil hat?) But, one of
these days he is going to leak the wrong file and insult the Taliban and
their friends in the west. Then he will see just what it is like to be on
the run. And will probably then want the U.S. or Britain to protect him.
Bear
WikiLeaks Founder on the Run, Chased by Turmoil By JOHN F.
BURNS<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/john_f_b...>and
RAVI SOMAIYA Published:
October 23, 2010
LONDON — Julian Assange moves like a hunted man. In a noisy Ethiopian
restaurant in London's rundown Paddington district, he pitches his voice
barely above a whisper to foil the Western intelligence agencies he fears.
He demands that his dwindling number of loyalists use expensive encrypted
cellphones and swaps his own as other men change shirts. He checks into
hotels under false names, dyes his hair, sleeps on sofas and floors, and
uses cash instead of credit cards, often borrowed from friends.
"By being determined to be on this path, and not to compromise, I've wound
up in an extraordinary situation," Mr. Assange said over lunch last Sunday,
when he arrived sporting a woolen beanie and a wispy stubble and trailing a
youthful entourage that included a filmmaker assigned to document any
unpleasant surprises.
In his remarkable journey to notoriety, Mr. Assange, founder of the
WikiLeaks<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/w/w...>whistle-blowers'
Web site, sees the next few weeks as his most hazardous.
Now he is making his most brazen disclosure yet: 391,832 secret documents on
the Iraq war. He held a news conference in London on Saturday, saying that
the release "constituted the most comprehensive and detailed account of any
war ever to have entered the public record."
Twelve weeks earlier, he posted on his organization's Web site some 77,000
classified Pentagon documents on the Afghan conflict.
Much has changed since 2006, when Mr. Assange, a 39-year-old Australian,
used years of computer hacking and what friends call a near genius I.Q. to
establish WikiLeaks, redefining whistle-blowing by gathering secrets in
bulk, storing them beyond the reach of governments and others determined to
retrieve them, then releasing them instantly, and globally.
Now it is not just governments that denounce him: some of his own comrades
are abandoning him for what they see as erratic and imperious behavior, and
a nearly delusional grandeur unmatched by an awareness that the digital
secrets he reveals can have a price in flesh and blood.
Several WikiLeaks colleagues say he alone decided to release the Afghan
documents without removing the names of Afghan intelligence sources
for NATO<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/n...>troops.
"We were very, very upset with that, and with the way he spoke about
it afterwards," said Birgitta Jonsdottir, a core WikiLeaks volunteer and a
member of Iceland's Parliament. "If he could just focus on the important
things he does, it would be better."
He is also being investigated in connection with accusations of rape and
molestation involving two Swedish women. Mr. Assange denied the allegations,
saying the relations were consensual. But prosecutors in Sweden have yet to
formally approve charges or dismiss the case eight weeks after the
complaints against Mr. Assange were filed, damaging his quest for a secure
base for himself and WikiLeaks. Though he characterizes the claims as "a
smear campaign," the scandal has compounded the pressures of his cloaked
life.
"When it comes to the point where you occasionally look forward to being in
prison on the basis that you might be able to spend a day reading a book,
the realization dawns that perhaps the situation has become a little more
stressful than you would like," he said over the London lunch.
*Exposing Secrets*
Mr. Assange has come a long way from an unsettled childhood in Australia as
a self-acknowledged social misfit who narrowly avoided prison after being
convicted on 25 charges of computer hacking in 1995. History is punctuated
by spies, defectors and others who revealed the most inflammatory secrets of
their age. Mr. Assange has become that figure for the Internet era, with as
yet unreckoned consequences for himself and for the keepers of the world's
secrets.
"I've been waiting 40 years for someone to disclose information on a scale
that might really make a difference," said Daniel
Ellsberg<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/e/daniel_e...>,
who exposed a 1,000-page secret study of the Vietnam War in 1971 that became
known as the Pentagon Papers.
Mr. Ellsberg said he saw kindred spirits in Mr. Assange and Pfc. Bradley
Manning<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/bradley_...>,
the 22-year-old former Army intelligence operative under detention in
Quantico, Va., suspected of leaking the Iraq and Afghan documents.
"They were willing to go to prison for life, or be executed, to put out this
information," Mr. Ellsberg said.
Underlying Mr. Assange's anxieties is deep uncertainty about what the United
States and its allies may do next. Pentagon and Justice department officials
have said they are weighing his actions under the 1917 Espionage Act. They
have demanded that Mr. Assange "return" all government documents in his
possession, undertake not to publish any new ones and not "solicit" further
American materials.
Mr. Assange has responded by going on the run, but has found no refuge. Amid
the Afghan documents controversy, he flew to Sweden, seeking a residence
permit and protection under that country's broad press freedoms. His initial
welcome was euphoric.
"They called me the James Bond of journalism," he recalled wryly. "It got me
a lot of fans, and some of them ended up causing me a bit of trouble."
In late September, he left Stockholm for Berlin. A bag he checked on the
almost empty flight disappeared, with three encrypted laptops. It has not
resurfaced; Mr. Assange suspects it was intercepted. From Germany, he
traveled to London, wary at being detained on arrival. Iceland, a country
with generous press freedoms , has also lost its appeal, with Mr. Assange
concluding that its government is too easily influenced by Washington.
He faces attack from within, too.
After the Sweden scandal, strains within WikiLeaks reached a breaking point,
with some of Mr. Assange's closest collaborators publicly defecting. The New
York Times spoke with dozens of people who have worked with and supported
him in Iceland, Sweden, Germany, Britain and the United States. What emerged
was a picture of the founder of WikiLeaks as its prime innovator and
charismatic force but as someone whose growing celebrity has been matched by
an increasingly dictatorial, eccentric and capricious style.
*Internal Turmoil*
Effectively, as Mr. Assange pursues his fugitive's life, his leadership is
enforced over the Internet. Even remotely, his style is imperious. When
Herbert Snorrason, a 25-year-old political activist in Iceland, questioned
Mr. Assange's judgment over a number of issues in an online exchange last
month, Mr. Assange was uncompromising. "I don't like your tone," he said,
according to a transcript. "If it continues, you're out."
Mr. Assange cast himself as indispensable. "I am the heart and soul of this
organization, its founder, philosopher, spokesperson, original coder,
organizer, financier, and all the rest," he said. "If you have a problem
with me," he told Mr. Snorrason, using an expletive, he should quit.
In an interview about the exchange, Mr. Snorrason's conclusion was stark.
"He is not in his right mind," he said. In London, Mr. Assange was
dismissive of all those who have criticized him. "These are not
consequential people," he said.
"About a dozen" disillusioned volunteers have left recently, said Smari
McCarthy, an Icelandic volunteer who has distanced himself in the recent
turmoil. In late summer, Mr. Assange suspended Daniel Domscheit-Berg, a
German who had been the WikiLeaks spokesman under the pseudonym Daniel
Schmitt, accusing him of unspecified "bad behavior." Many more activists,
Mr. McCarthy said, are likely to follow.
Mr. Assange denied that any important volunteers had quit, apart from Mr.
Domscheit-Berg. But further defections could paralyze an organization that
Mr. Assange says has 40 core volunteers and about 800 mostly unpaid
followers to maintain a diffuse web of computer servers and to secure the
system against attack — to guard against the kind of infiltration that
WikiLeaks itself has used to generate its revelations.
Mr. Assange's detractors also accuse him of pursuing a vendetta against the
United States. In London, Mr. Assange said America was an increasingly
militarized society and a threat to democracy. Moreover, he said, "we have
been attacked by the United States, so we are forced into a position where
we must defend ourselves."
Even among those challenging Mr. Assange's leadership style, there is
recognition that the intricate computer and financial architecture WikiLeaks
uses to shield it against its enemies has depended on its founder. "He's
very unique and extremely capable," said Ms. Jonsdottir, the Icelandic
lawmaker.
*A Rash of Scoops*
Before posting the documents on Afghanistan and Iraq, WikiLeaks enjoyed a
string of coups.
Supporters were thrilled when the organization posted documents on the
Guantánamo Bay detention operation, Sarah
Palin<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/sarah_pa...>'s
e-mail, reports of extrajudicial killings in Kenya and East Timor, the
membership rolls of the neo-Nazi British National Party and a combat video
showing American Apache helicopters in Baghdad in 2007 gunning down at least
12 people, including two Reuters journalists.
But now, WikiLeaks has been met with new doubts. Amnesty
International<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/a...>and
Reporters Without Borders have joined the Pentagon in criticizing the
organization for risking people's lives by publishing war logs identifying
Afghans working for the Americans or acting as informers.
A Taliban<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/t/t...>spokesman
in Afghanistan using the pseudonym Zabiullah Mujahid said in a
telephone interview that the Taliban had formed a nine-member "commission"
after the Afghan documents were posted "to find about people who are
spying." He said the Taliban had a "wanted" list of 1,800 Afghans and was
comparing that with names WikiLeaks provided.
"After the process is completed, our Taliban court will decide about such
people," he said.
Mr. Assange defended posting unredacted documents, saying he balanced his
decision "with the knowledge of the tremendous good and prevention of harm
that is caused" by putting the information into the public domain. "There
are no easy choices on the table for this organization," he said.
But if Mr. Assange is sustained by his sense of mission, faith is fading
among his fellow conspirators. His mood was caught vividly in an exchange on
Sept. 20 with another senior WikiLeaks figure. In an encrypted online chat,
a transcript of which was passed to The Times, Mr. Assange was dismissive of
his colleagues. He described them as "a confederacy of fools," and asked his
interlocutor, "Am I dealing with a complete retard?"
In London, Mr. Assange was angered when asked about the rifts. He responded
testily to questions about WikiLeaks's opaque finances, Private Manning's
fate and WikiLeaks's apparent lack of accountability to anybody but himself,
calling the questions "cretinous," "facile" and reminiscent of
"kindergarten."
Mr. Assange has been equivocal about Private Manning, talking in late summer
as though the soldier was unavoidable collateral damage, much like the
Afghans named as informers in the secret Pentagon documents.
But in London, he took a more sympathetic view, describing Private Manning
as a "political prisoner" facing a jail term of up to 52 years, without
confirming that he was the source of the disclosed war logs. "We have a duty
to assist Mr. Manning and other people who are facing legal and other
consequences," Mr. Assange said.
Mr. Assange's own fate seems as imperiled as Private Manning's. His British
visa will expire early next year. When he left the London restaurant at
twilight, heading into the shadows, he declined to say where he was going.
The man who has put some of the world's most powerful institutions on his
watch list was on the move again.
Eric Schmitt contributed reporting from Washington, and Dexter Filkins from
Kabul, Afghanistan.
--
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Mark M. Kahle H.
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Mark M. Kahle H.
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