Thursday, September 9, 2010

Battle of the Planets: Muzzies Call for 'Burn the Stars and Stripes Day'







Battle of the Planets: Muzzies Call for 'Burn the Stars and Stripes Day'

doctorbulldog | 9 September, 2010 at 8:44 am | Categories: Muslim whining, Muslims in The USA, Religion | URL: http://wp.me/p1NPg-6tF

ROFLMAO!!!  As if they somehow stopped burning the American Flag just about every other day!  Besides, Libtards and Lefturds think it is patriotic to burn a flag in protest.  Me, personally, I think it's quite patriotic of Muzzies to burn the American Flag for us after they have spat upon it and soiled it...

Well, I guess at least it's better than 'Kill and Infidel Day..."

Muslim Activist Calls for "Burn the Stars and Stripes Day"
Posted on September 9, 2010 at 7:33am by Jonathon M. Seidl
The Blaze

A Muslim activist and lawyer in the U.K. is calling on Muslims worldwide to burn U.S. flags outside American embassies on Sept. 11. The activist, according to CBS news, is considered a radical, and says his "international burn the Stars and Stripes Day" is in "direct retaliation" against pastor Terry Jones and his Florida church's plan to burn the Koran on the same day.

The man calling for the mass burning is Anjem Choudary, former leader of the banned hardline Islamic group Islam4UK. According to CBS, Choudary regularly organizes demonstrations in Britain calling for the implementation of Islamic law.

The report also says that the State Department has issued a warning to all embassies to prepare for possible backlash should the Koran burning take place as planned on Saturday.

General David Petraeus, Secretary of State Hilary Clinton, and others have spoken out against the planned Koran burning. Petraeus has said that it will endanger U.S. troops abroad, while Glenn Beck has said that "burning the Koran is like burning the flag or the Bible."

UPDATE:

Meanwhile, an Afghan cleric today warned that U.S. troops in the country's north would face large protests if Jones proceeds with his planned Koran burning. Yahoo News reports that Abdul Hadi Rostaqi, a member of the cleric council in Afghanistan's largely peaceful Balkh province, said if the burning goes ahead, "a big protest will be held" in the provincial capital Mazar-i-Sharif next Monday, and that NATO-led troops stationed in the city would be the primary target.

The report also notes that about 200 people marched and burned a U.S. flag in the central Pakistani city of Multan, quoting one protester's sign as saying, "If Quran is burned it would be beginning of destruction of America."

Iran's Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki also warned of "reactions by the world's Muslims as well as followers of other religions."

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Re: Obama urges Fla. pastor to call off plan to burn Korans on Sept. 11

Good Morning Tommy,
 
Similar words and strategies were murmured by a guy from Britain seventy-something years ago.  Nevell Chamberlain.  
 
That dog won't hunt.
 


 
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Tommy News <tommysnews@gmail.com> wrote:
From our friend Steve:
Somebody should lay it out to him (The pastor who is planning to burn Qurans on 9/11) like this: so you burn their qurans,
the only appropriate realiation will be for them to burn bibles, so then
you can burn mosgues, then they can burn churches, then you can kill
muslims and they can kill christians ... where will it end? Before you
instigate a war, you should think very carefully as to where it's likely
headed .. a war where everybody's a loser.

Obama urges Fla. pastor to call off plan to burn Korans on Sept. 11

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Who's Blogging
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 9, 2010; 8:59 AM

President Obama urged a Florida pastor Thursday to call off a plan to burn copies of the Koran on Sept. 11, warning that such a "stunt" would amount to a "recruitment bonanza for al-Qaeda" and would endanger Americans.

Obama added his voice to a chorus of criticism of the proposed Koran-burning in an interview broadcast Thursday on ABC's "Good Morning America" program. He urged Terry Jones, pastor of a small evangelical church in Gainesville, Fla., to listen to his "better angels" and cancel his plan to burn copies of the Muslim holy book on the ninth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

"If he's listening, I hope he understands that what he's proposing to do is completely contrary to our values as Americans, that this country has been built on the notion of freedom and religious tolerance," Obama said. "And as a very practical matter, I just want him to understand that this stunt that he is talking about pulling could greatly endanger our young men and women who are in uniform."

Obama added: "Look, this is a recruitment bonanza for al-Qaeda. You could have serious violence in places like Pakistan and Afghanistan. This could increase the recruitment of individuals who would be willing to blow themselves up in American cities or European cities."

The president said he hopes Jones "listens to those better angels and understands that this is a destructive act that he's engaging in."

By weighing in on the controversy, Obama joined critics from across the political and religious spectrum in condemning Jones's plan.

Obama's comments came as American religious leaders lobbied behind the scenes, reaching out to Jones personally in efforts to persuade him to change his mind.

Among them was Geoff Tunnicliffe, who heads one of the world's largest faith organizations, the World Evangelical Alliance. For weeks, Tunnicliffe had remained silent about the intention of the tiny Gainesville church to publicly torch Islam's holy book, not wanting to lend legitimacy to Jones or his Dove World Outreach Center.

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But after hearing from Pentecostal leaders around the globe about their fears that the scripture-burning could spark sectarian violence, he decided he needed to appeal to Jones as a fellow Christian.

The planned Koran-burning already has been condemned by everyone from Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton to Gen. David H. Petraeus to conservative commentator Glenn Beck to actress Angelina Jolie. Even Franklin Graham, son of famed evangelist Billy Graham and an outspoken critic of Islam, tried twice without a success to reach Jones on Wednesday to express his disapproval of defacing or destroying the sacred texts or writings of other religions, a spokesman said.

During a 10-minute cellphone conversation, Tunnicliffe described himself as "pleading" with the man whose plans have already sparked angry protests in Jakarta and Kabul and that some fear could put the lives of U.S. troops in Muslim countries at risk.

"I tried to talk about the impact this would have on his own stated goals of taking the gospel to the world," said Tunnicliffe, whose group represents hundreds of millions of evangelicals, including those who live in Muslim countries.

More:


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Obama urges Fla. pastor to call off plan to burn Korans on Sept. 11

From our friend Steve:
Somebody should lay it out to him (The pastor who is planning to burn Qurans on 9/11) like this: so you burn their qurans,
the only appropriate realiation will be for them to burn bibles, so then
you can burn mosgues, then they can burn churches, then you can kill
muslims and they can kill christians ... where will it end? Before you
instigate a war, you should think very carefully as to where it's likely
headed .. a war where everybody's a loser.

Obama urges Fla. pastor to call off plan to burn Korans on Sept. 11

Discussion Policy
Comments that include profanity or personal attacks or other inappropriate comments or material will be removed from the site. Additionally, entries that are unsigned or contain "signatures" by someone other than the actual author will be removed. Finally, we will take steps to block users who violate any of our posting standards, terms of use or privacy policies or any other policies governing this site. Please review the full rules governing commentaries and discussions. You are fully responsible for the content that you post.
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 9, 2010; 8:59 AM

President Obama urged a Florida pastor Thursday to call off a plan to burn copies of the Koran on Sept. 11, warning that such a "stunt" would amount to a "recruitment bonanza for al-Qaeda" and would endanger Americans.

Obama added his voice to a chorus of criticism of the proposed Koran-burning in an interview broadcast Thursday on ABC's "Good Morning America" program. He urged Terry Jones, pastor of a small evangelical church in Gainesville, Fla., to listen to his "better angels" and cancel his plan to burn copies of the Muslim holy book on the ninth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

"If he's listening, I hope he understands that what he's proposing to do is completely contrary to our values as Americans, that this country has been built on the notion of freedom and religious tolerance," Obama said. "And as a very practical matter, I just want him to understand that this stunt that he is talking about pulling could greatly endanger our young men and women who are in uniform."

Obama added: "Look, this is a recruitment bonanza for al-Qaeda. You could have serious violence in places like Pakistan and Afghanistan. This could increase the recruitment of individuals who would be willing to blow themselves up in American cities or European cities."

The president said he hopes Jones "listens to those better angels and understands that this is a destructive act that he's engaging in."

By weighing in on the controversy, Obama joined critics from across the political and religious spectrum in condemning Jones's plan.

Obama's comments came as American religious leaders lobbied behind the scenes, reaching out to Jones personally in efforts to persuade him to change his mind.

Among them was Geoff Tunnicliffe, who heads one of the world's largest faith organizations, the World Evangelical Alliance. For weeks, Tunnicliffe had remained silent about the intention of the tiny Gainesville church to publicly torch Islam's holy book, not wanting to lend legitimacy to Jones or his Dove World Outreach Center.

ad_icon

But after hearing from Pentecostal leaders around the globe about their fears that the scripture-burning could spark sectarian violence, he decided he needed to appeal to Jones as a fellow Christian.

The planned Koran-burning already has been condemned by everyone from Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton to Gen. David H. Petraeus to conservative commentator Glenn Beck to actress Angelina Jolie. Even Franklin Graham, son of famed evangelist Billy Graham and an outspoken critic of Islam, tried twice without a success to reach Jones on Wednesday to express his disapproval of defacing or destroying the sacred texts or writings of other religions, a spokesman said.

During a 10-minute cellphone conversation, Tunnicliffe described himself as "pleading" with the man whose plans have already sparked angry protests in Jakarta and Kabul and that some fear could put the lives of U.S. troops in Muslim countries at risk.

"I tried to talk about the impact this would have on his own stated goals of taking the gospel to the world," said Tunnicliffe, whose group represents hundreds of millions of evangelicals, including those who live in Muslim countries.

More:


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Re: Burning the Quran: Clinton slams Florida pastor Terry Jones for 'disgraceful' plans

President Obama urged a Florida pastor Thursday to call off a plan to burn copies of the Koran on Sept. 11, warning that such a "stunt" would amount to a "recruitment bonanza for al-Qaeda" and would endanger American troops and civilians.

On 9/8/10, Keith In Tampa <keithintampa@gmail.com> wrote:
Well Well Well!!!  Look who walked in the door!!!
 
Hello Lobo!!  Good to see ya!  I hope you have been doing well, and as stated, it is really damn good to see ya over here on this side of the street!  We've missed you, and logical thinking folks from the left of center here lately.
 
Unfortunately, your last missive was far from logical or thoughtful.  
 
I don't know much about this minister in Gainesville, I've only seen him on CNN, FOX and BBC, but  he looks like a transplant from trailer park in Ohio, (and I note that he doesn't have a southern accent).   I also note that the mainstream media has done everything that they can do to besmirch this minister, and maybe rightfully so.
 
As I wrote in another thread,  I don't recall ever seeing such a media outcry, much less an Army General come out and condemn something like this.   It is as if we are fearful of Islam, and potential repercussions from what the government and the mainstream media like to call, "radical fundamentalists".
 
Unfortunately, that just isn't the case.
 
To date,  I have seen no one from the left, or our federal government, come out and condemn Islam, and any thinking person, as well as all governments, should come out and condemn Islam.   Unlike Christianity and Judaism, which have reformed literally countless times over the last milennium,  Islam has never reformed. 
 
If a Christian denomination chose to sacrifice the vestal virgins at the alter in the name of God, or Jesus, this would be condemned, but more importantly, outlawed.
 
If a Jewish Synagogue, (or any Christian Church) chose to start utilizing peyote or marijuana in order to communicate with God, again, this would be condemned and outlawed.  (There are numerous examples of the latter)
 
Yet Islam can call for the taxation, and eventually the murder and violent brutal death of anyone who refuses to accept and believe in Mohammud as the true prohet. 
 
Islam allows for prostitution, it allows for men to take four wives, (and a fifth wife for thirty minutes or so at their whim);  and the total subservience of women to their husbands and their families.   In other words, women in Islam are treated as chattel.
 
Those Muslims who are considered to be "moderate" are in for the same fate as us who do not accept Mohammud as the true prophet;  they too are infidels.
 
There are numerous examples of how Islam is in violation of numerous federal and state laws in the United States,  yet we continue to uphold this cult as a legitimate religion.  
 
I beg to differ, until such time as Islam reforms, every Mosque should be shut down within the United States, and every individual who is not a citizen of the United States who claims to be Muslim should be deported. 
 
There is nothing at all bigoted about this statement.  There is nothing at all violative of anyone's First Amendment rights contained within my statement.  This is merely even handed justice, yet no one from the current Administration, (or the previous Administration!)  has the cajones to do what is right, and called for.
 
No, I have no problem with this Minister burning Qu'rans, despite how misguided he may be. Your premise that those who are purportedly bigoted and "world class assholes" should be held publicly and morally accountble, I suggest should be applied also to those who refuse to stand up to Islam, and call a "spade a spade" or maybe better said, "Call Islam what it really is"; which is a cult which practices illcit activities.
 
Again, good to see ya Lobo!!
 
KeithInTampa
 
 
 
 
 
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Lobo <randall_w@bellsouth.net> wrote:
 
Before burning a Koran -- especially the way these rightwing asswipes
want to do it -- a bookburner should either sign up to put his own
cowardly hide on the line in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, or have a loved
one go over there.

Perhaps then he wouldn't so readily put the lives of American
servicemen and women in danger for the momentary Nazi-like thrill of
burning someone else's holy book.

If people choose to be ignorant, hate-filled bigots and world-class
assholes, that is their Constitutional right. But they ought to be
held morally and publicly accountable for what they do.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


On Sep 8, 2:10 pm, Travis <baconl...@gmail.com> wrote:
 
> Before burning a koran one should have a dog urinate on it.  It slows the
> burn a bit and takes the muzzieshit smell out.
>
>
>
 
> On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Tommy News <tommysn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > *Burning the Quran is like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.
> > Afghanistan and Iraq are the theaters crowded with American soldiers. Pastor
> > Terry Jones is waiting for a "clear message from God" to call off this book
> > burning on Saturday 9-11. Lets hope God speaks up, or that Pastor Jones
> > thinks he did. -T*
>
> > Clinton slams Florida pastor for 'disgraceful' plans
> > By *the CNN Wire Staff*
> > September 8, 2010 12:23 p.m. EDT
> >   [image: Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said she thinks we "have a
> > real shot" at successful Middle East peace talks.]
> > Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said she thinks we "have a real shot" at
> > successful Middle East peace talks.
> >  *STORY HIGHLIGHTS*
>
> >    - Hillary Clinton speaks before Council on Foreign Relations
> >    - Clinton slams Bush's fiscal record, saying irresponsibility harms
> >    U.S. security
> >    - She urges Senate passage of the START nuclear arms reduction treaty
> >    - Clinton says sanctions against Iran are starting to take hold
>
> >   *RELATED TOPICS*
>
> >    - Hillary Clinton <http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Hillary_Clinton>
> >    - Foreign Policy <http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Foreign_Policy>
 
> >    - Islam <http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Islam>
>
> > *Washington (CNN)* -- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton used a foreign
> > policy talk to weigh in on hot-button political issues Wednesday, slamming a
> > Florida pastor for his "disgraceful" plan to burn the Quran and strongly
> > criticizing George W. Bush's fiscal record.
>
> > Clinton warned about the long-term consequences of rising federal budget
> > deficits, arguing that they will eventually diminish U.S. power and impair
> > America's ability to act effectively in the global arena.
>
> > Her remarks came during an appearance before the nonpartisan Council on
> > Foreign Relations.
>
> > Clinton noted that Terry Jones, the Florida pastor, is the head of a small
> > congregation and said she wished that his plans to burn the Quran on the
> > anniversary of the September 11 terrorist attacks hadn't attracted so much
> > media attention. But sadly, "that's the world we live in right now," she
> > said.
>
> > Jones' plans could harm U.S. troops, she asserted, echoing a recent warning
> > from Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan.
>
> > The pastor's plan doesn't represent broader American views on Islam,
> > Clinton declared. "It's not who we are," she said.
>
> > Clinton also slammed Jones' plans on Tuesday night at a State Department
> > dinner in honor of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.
>
> > Jones has rebuffed pleas to call off the event, saying that radical
> > Islamists are the target of his message.
>
> > On fiscal matters, Clinton had harsh words for Bush. Cutting taxes while
> > fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq without paying for them was a "deadly
> > combination" in terms of "fiscal sanity," she said.
>
> > "Responsible" authorities on fiscal matters "are not being heard right
> > now," she warned. "There is no free lunch, and we can't pretend that there
> > is ... without doing great harm" to the country.
>
> > Republicans have tried to turn the tables on Democrats in recent months on
> > the issue of fiscal responsibility, arguing that the administration's fiscal
> > stimulus plans have significantly added to the national debt while failing
> > to effectively restore economic growth.
>
> > Clinton also expressed frustration with the treatment of sensitive foreign
> > policy issues in domestic politics, urging a partisan "détente" that cuts
> > "across the partisan divide."
>
> > Among other things, she cited the START nuclear arms reduction treaty,
> > which is slated to be taken up by the Senate in September but faces
> > significant opposition among key Republicans.
>
> > The treaty has become a "political issue," she said, but "I wish it
> > weren't." The accord is seen in Europe as an important symbol of America's
> > commitment to work with Russia, she said.
>
> > Turning to the Middle East, Clinton said she thinks we "have a real shot"
> > at a successful conclusion to the new Israeli-Palestinian peace talks.
>
> > On efforts to block Iran's nuclear program, Clinton said the United States
> > believes Tehran "is beginning to feel the full impact" of recently imposed
> > sanctions.
>
> > "International financial and commercial sectors are ... starting to
> > recognize the risks of doing business with Iran," she told the Council on
> > Foreign Relations.
>
> > Sanctions "are the building blocks of leverage for a negotiated solution,"
> > she said. "We will see how Iran decides."
>
> > The United States has repeatedly lobbied other nations to step up sanctions
> > against Iran. The European Union, Canada, Japan and South Korea are among
> > those that have done so.
>
> > Iran, however, is continuing its uranium enrichment activities in defiance
> > of U.N. Security Council resolutions, according to a report released Monday
> > by the International Atomic Energy Agency.
>
> > Iran has rebuffed international demands to halt its uranium enrichment
> > program, saying it wants the nuclear fuel for peaceful uses. IAEA officials,
> > however, have not been convinced.
> > More:
> >http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/08/clinton.foreign.policy/
>
> > --
> > Together, we can change the world, one mind at a time.
> > Have a great day,
> > Tommy
>
> > --
> > Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups.
 
> > For options & help seehttp://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum
>
 
> > * Visit our other community athttp://www.PoliticalForum.com/<http://www.politicalforum.com/>
> > * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls.
 
> > * Read the latest breaking news, and more.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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Pastor Jones: A Useful Idiot


Pastor Jones: A Useful Idiot
An Idiot Burning Religious Books Is Spun By the Washington Elites
by Ron Holland

The establishment is all outraged about the wacko preacher down in Florida planning to burn the Koran on 9/11. I agree it is a stupid act with some downside against the already deplorable reputation of the United States around the world but this is a freedom of speech and religion issue just like the proposed mosque to be located near the World Trade Center.

My problem is all of this PC rhetoric not to alienate Moslems is just more establishment propaganda to destroy freedom of speech and opposition in our nation by labeling everything they oppose as hate speech etc. Where was the establishment when Moslem groups like Hamas burned Bibles, or Orthodox Jews burned Bibles in Israel and Evangelical extremists' burn the Book of Mormon here in the US? This media outrage just gives the enemies of freedom another opportunity to label those who oppose the status quo as intolerant racists and white trash rednecks whether they are slandering the Tea Party, Southerners or Ron Paul supporters.

The second point always mentioned is how this will put US soldiers at more risk in our occupation of several Moslem countries. Our nation due to our invasions, bombings and targeted killings is already the most hated country on the face of the earth in most of the Arab world. Therefore I seriously doubt this will add much to the outrage but I fear this will be a great propaganda victory for the terrorist extremists and the Neocons who want war. We must remember it was the Neocon establishment which enslaved American foreign policy for their interests and that has put our troops at risk, not some crazy preacher down in Florida.

Consequently, this has become a major news event and issue here at home and now around the world because the political establishment sought to use this issue as another warning to those who oppose the Washington political elites at home and military aggression abroad.

While Pastor Jones and his mentally challenged church members certainly have a right to protest and advocate their point of view, he is actually just playing into the hands of Moslem extremists abroad and our own Neocon-controlled government here at home. In the end both groups threaten the remaining liberties of Americans to practice the religion or non-religion of our choice as well as our culture, an honest history and our sovereignty.

The only burning we should be doing in our nation is legally disposing of the defeated regulations and legislative acts of a political establishment out to enslave us to their controls, wealth confiscation and dictates. To do this, first we must peacefully and through education and the democratic process take back our nation from the special interests that now control it and operate our government as their own, legal Mafia-type operation.

We do not have to agree with other religions or political views but we should show respect and toleration for all while we defend and advocate our views in the strongest possible manner. The same can be said for the Washington establishment and a few of their "approved opposition" libertarian and conservative beltway buddies. There really isn't a lot of difference except in sophistication from the outrageous behavior by Pastor Jones and some who oppose the real freedom movement as we have seen by attacks against Ron Paul and the Mises Institute.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/holland/holland27.1.html

Mosques, Book Burnings, Collectivism and War Worship


Mosques, Book Burnings, Collectivism and War Worship
By Anthony Gregory
Sep 8, 2010

The Cordoba House Islamic community center, scheduled for construction on private land within a few blocks of where the Twin Towers once stood, has drawn ire from many Americans, many of whom have provocatively called it the "Ground Zero Mosque" and have condemned it as offensive, and many of whom have called on the government to step in and prevent the center's construction, in violation of both the private property rights of the owner of the land as well as the principles of religious toleration that make America a great country.

Defenders of the construction project have pointed out that the building is not a mosque, but a community center ­ essentially a Muslim version of the YMCA. Opponents have snapped back that the building will in fact have a mosque in it.

But according to Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who is spearheading the project, the center will also include separate places of prayer for Christians and Jews. And while some have said the project's backers should instead give money to a 9/11 memorial, the Imam says the center will also have "a multifaith memorial dedicated to victims of the Sept. 11 attacks."

Some have pointed out the supposed bad taste of building any sort of house of Muslim prayer near Ground Zero, but this assumes that Islam was the culprit on 9/11. It wasn't. And even moderate defenders of the "Ground Zero mosque" will try to differentiate between radical and moderate Islam­but radical Islam is not really the reason behind the 9/11 attacks, either. The motivation was revenge for U.S. foreign policy, and although that certainly doesn't excuse the atrocity, there is nothing unique about Islam, fundamentalist or not, that is needed to explain this act of revenge. As Robert Pape's extensive research decisively shows, even the particularly gruesome spectacle of suicide bombing has little to do with religious extremism per se­many suicide bombers are not Muslim and even secular­and much more to do with resistance against a foreign occupier.

When Americans went to war after 9/11, revenge was a motivator there, too. But Americans' religion had little to do with it. When Israel invaded Lebanon in 2006, this too was likely an act of revenge (or as some would claim, self-defense) against Hezbollah. The fact that the Israelis were mostly Jewish was not the major factor. Geopolitics and war in the region, as well as in U.S. conflicts with the Muslim world, do relate to religious questions. But it is not Islam, or Christianity, or Judaism, that is responsible for these acts of violence.

The Lebanese seem to understand this distinction, as they appear to support the reconstruction of a synagogue that was destroyed in the Israeli invasion of their country in 2006. Lebanon's own "Ground Zero" synagogue is a good example for Americans of how to distinguish between belligerents that attack your country and the religion they happen to belong to.

Newt Gingrich bellowed that so long as Saudi Arabia doesn't allow churches or synagogues, Americans shouldn't tolerate a mosque near Ground Zero. As though this should be our standard. But in any event, while many Muslim nations are quite theocratic, a few do allow relative freedom for Christians and Jews. Sharia law does not bind non-Muslims in Kazakhstan, Turkey and Mali. The world's Muslims are not a monolith, and if the Lebanese don't hold Israel's belligerence against their small Jewish minority­as they shouldn't­then neither should Americans hold the violence of some Saudis and Egyptians on 9/11 (all hailed from these nations, our allies) against our much bigger Muslim minority. Nor should we hold it against the Muslims in the rest of the world­in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran or Pakistan­who have nothing to do with 9/11 at all.

Meanwhile, some Americans are planning to burn the Quran on 9/11 this year. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and General David Patraeus are right that this is an incendiary act­far more intentionally offensive, it would seem to me, than the mosque building­and that it could motivate more Muslims to hate Americans. But as Ron Paul points out, such U.S. officials are ignoring the real American-caused incitement of anti-American violence and terrorism: U.S. foreign policy. It is foolish, offensive, ugly, stupid and probably immoral for Americans to burn the Quran in such a display of religious animosity. But on the other hand, at least these Americans are planning to destroy their own private property­the U.S. military and State Department, as a matter of course, loot and destroy the private property of other people, Americans and foreigners alike. Worse, U.S. wars have killed hundreds of thousands of foreigners in just the last decade or so. This is by far the bigger problem, and Hillary and the general should focus on what they can do to reduce anti-American hatred. Burning the Quran is terrible. But bombing and burning foreign mosques and killing women and children would seem to me much worse, by practically any moral standard.

Moreover, this whole notion that Ground Zero is "hallowed ground" is itself religiously offensive to me, and should be offensive to anyone who subscribes to Christianity or any other major religion. The U.S. government is not sacred. The lives lost on 9/11 were of course of infinite worth. But to single out a spot of blowback against U.S. wars­a spot that was jumped upon to launch ever more wars and the expansion of the U.S. government­and call it "hallowed ground" evokes religious imagery and feeling in a potentially blasphemous way. But in America, while Muslims pray in fear and even Christians, the majority, are harassed about their faith­where distinct minorities like fundamentalist Mormons and Branch Davidians are deprived of their families or even their right to live­worship of the U.S. government is the most protected "religious" freedom. Indeed, this is why we're supposed to be completely enraged when foreigners burn the American flag, and yet not even bothered when American interrogators desecrate the Quran as they are conducting "enhanced interrogation techniques" against U.S. captives. It is why any disrespect of the U.S. Armed Forces is sacrilege in America, even as almost no Americans are aware that U.S. marines­the "best and the brightest"­spray-painted their motto "Semper Fi" onto the walls of the 4,000-year-old Ziggurat of Ur after they "liberated" the ancient Sumerian city, the Cradle of Civilization itself, as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Religion might be part of the particular motivation of every major side in the wars and terrorism of today, but it is the secular religion of collectivism, the civic religion of statism, that is most philosophically responsible for all this violence, and that has allowed people to reject their own religious teachings not to kill the innocent for what they have convinced themselves is the pursuit of the greater good. Utilitarianism and materialism and the worship of the worldly, not the spiritual, are the main problem here.

Religious freedom is under attack. Property rights are a thing of the past. A baseline of civility is absent in the way so many Americans have continued to respond to the terrorist attacks nine years ago. And worst of all, the U.S. government has continued its orgy of mass killing­in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and into Pakistan and who knows where next­demonstrating that the most important lessons of 9/11 have yet to be learned.


http://www.independent.org/blog/index.php?p=7803

The 'Ground-Zero Mosque' and Grand Staircase Escalante


Regarding the media frenzy about the "Ground-Zero Mosque," Ryan Long asks: if the land surrounding the World Trade Center is so sacrosanct for some Americans, why haven't they purchased it themselves?

The 'Ground-Zero Mosque' and Grand Staircase Escalante
Thursday, September 02, 2010 by Ryan P. Long

With no end in sight, the controversy surrounding the so-called ground-zero mosque continues to bring out the worst in all of us. As the controversy continues, I'm struck by a parallel between this proposed mosque and another American monument established in 1996.


Background

Almost 15 years ago, President Bill Clinton designated a large expanse of land in Utah as the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument. Seen largely as a political ploy to win favor among voting environmentalists, the designation of this national monument immediately halted business development in the area, including a proposed coal mine, and stifled Utah's ability to make use of lands designated to help pay for the state's school system.

Creation of the monument also sparked a conflict between local county officials and the federal Bureau of Land Management over which authorities have jurisdiction over the dirt roads throughout the monument. This controversy continues to this day and is quite emblematic of the frustration felt by many of us in the more rural western United States over BLM practices and fair use of what we see as "our own land."

Make no mistake: these matters are conflicts of law with no easy solutions. The controversy over Grand Staircase Escalante is very much alive in Utah today, with local ranchers and miners still angry about what they see as federal usurpation of important economic resources, and local environmental activists equally as passionate in their support of the monument. However, we must pause to note that this issue no longer has a place on the national stage.


Our Right to Resolve Local Issues Locally

One root of the issue is the question of why the use of local land that most Americans will never see in their entire lives was elevated to the national stage. At the time, I recall wondering why people from such places as California, Chicago, New York, and Washington had such strong opinions on land about which they knew nothing and in which they had no stake. Fifteen years later, I still don't know. Nevertheless, President Clinton was able to leverage a national appetite for environmental protection toward the resolution of an entirely local land-use issue.

Many locals rightly felt that their views were trounced by far-away opinions that were completely distanced from the very real local issues Utahns were living every day. Their question rings as true today as it did in 1996: How much weight does "national opinion" carry with regard to local issues, especially when it comes to land use?

I ask this question now because the fundamental issue is very similar in New York City today. Put to a local vote, it seems virtually guaranteed that the majority of New Yorkers would back the mosque's right to exist. As a result, the controversy today ­ as it was in Utah 15 years ago ­ is being generated and exploited by a national public with no immediate connection to the particular lands in question. Of what relevance, really, are the opinions of Utahns, Arizonans, Californians, Washingtonians, et al., in matters of private property in New York City? The obvious answer is none, of course.

And yet, as a former resident of Utah, I cannot help but feel that some in New York City are now getting their just desserts for weighing in on far-away private property issues. Herein lies a lesson to be learned by all of us: one day, you are the one determining what some distant group should do with their own land; the next day, they may very well be determining how you use yours!

This is the inherent danger of elevating local matters to the national stage. What right does any New Yorker have to object to a national discourse on this mosque, when they were so quick to weigh in on analogous controversies elsewhere in the country?


Civic Duty and Personal Responsibility

If it is not already clear, let us take a moment to be unequivocal: The use of one's own private property is determined by the owner, subject to local zoning laws. What this means is that if a religious group purchases land fair and square with the intention of constructing a religious building, they are well within their rights to do so. On this point, all sides agree. So let that be the end of the question.

There is a confusion about land value at work here. To wit, if what is now known as "Ground Zero" is hallowed ground for our country, then where are all the patriots willing to put their money where their mouths are? Throughout the Amazon rainforest, environmental groups and green-minded individuals have purchased great expanses of land because they, as private individuals, wish to see that land untouched by developers. Rather than coerce the locals through the machinery of government, they simply (and peacefully) purchase what they value so that the land may continue to exist in a way that they prefer. If it is important to some Americans that "Ground Zero" remains free of monuments to Islam, then one may very well ask how much New York City land they have purchased to ensure that it exists as a patriotic monument consistent with their own preferences.

Ironically, this argument was just as easy to apply to environmentalists in 1996, who decided to use the federal government as a tool to determine land use, rather than peacefully purchasing land and using it in accordance with their values.

It is easy to see the discrepancy between what people claim to value and what values they are truly willing to stand behind (e.g., financially). Those who wish to conserve natural landmarks or patriotic hallowed ground are certainly free to exercise their rights, purchase property, and invest themselves in the values they hold dear. Those who elect not to exercise this right have no place criticizing those who do, no matter to what legal use the land is eventually put.


Conclusion

In an ideal world, we could transcend allegedly "polarizing" issues like this and exist in a harmonious, free society. Rather than rushing to condemn a monument to Islam near the former World Trade Center, concerned Americans could financially contribute to the erection of such a monument with the proviso that the eventual landmark properly reflects their values. Those in charge of erecting the landmark would then be eager to create a monument to the peaceful, free, and cooperative society that America has always been.

In the real world, pundits fan the flames. It is tempting to participate in the controversy, lending our own unique take on a multifaceted issue. When left-liberals label their opponents bigots, and conservatives become enemies of private property, it is important for libertarians to adhere to principle. At issue is more than just private property and the freedom to worship, but one of the most attractive and important principles of classical liberalism: civic duty.

Of course all Americans have a right to worship as they please. Of course all Americans have a right to use private property as they see fit. Beyond that cursory glance lie the more important concepts of putting our money where our mouths are if we wish to see land used the way we want it to be, and letting local people sort out their own local issues on the local stage.



Ryan P. Long works as an economist and consultant for a market research firm in Ottawa, Canada. He has authored and coauthored articles for trade publications and journals of economics, management science, and health outcomes research. Send him mail. See Ryan P. Long's article archives.

This article first published as " Grand Staircase Escalante and the 'Ground Zero Mosque,'" on Ryan P. Long's blog, Stationary Waves.


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RE: **JP** LETS STOP NAUZUBILLAH BURN QURAN DAY AT RAWALPINDI PRESS CLUB ON 11 - 9 - 2010 (SATURDAY) AT 3:00 PM

I suggest that similar protests be oganized at other cities as well.

 

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Subject: **JP** LETS STOP NAUZUBILLAH BURN QURAN DAY AT RAWALPINDI PRESS CLUB ON 11 - 9 - 2010 (SATURDAY) AT 3:00 PM

 

 



JOIN US  IN PRESS CONFERANCE / PROTEST AGAINST CHURCH OF FLORIDA NAUZUBILLAH BURN QURAN DAY 9-11(BY EVIL TERRY JOHNS WHO IS A CHURCH PASTER)

LETS STOP NAUZUBILLAH BURN QURAN DAY AT RAWALPINDI PRESS CLUB ON 11 - 9 - 2010 (SATURDAY) AT 3:00 PM 

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