land the helicopter and ask for IDs?
in a war when you under fire as this helo was earlier. you don't stop and ask your commander if he is sure? Hind sight is 20/20. but not when you refuse to see the facts in front of you.
if you don't understand the difference between killing a civilian by accident. when your intel is wrong. and executing civilians in a cold and illegal manner. you are out of your depth in the discussion.
Bear
On 23 October 2010 18:25, Mark <markmkahle@gmail.com> wrote:
Firstly, you premise does not hold water.
You assume, wrongly, that the crew knew they were reporters. They did not. They were told that the men were insurgents and were told to take them out.
We blindly follow orders now?? Men were hanged by "your side" in years past for that very thing.--
On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Bear Bear <thatbearguy@gmail.com> wrote:
Oh dear
Firstly, you premise does not hold water.
You assume, wrongly, that the crew knew they were reporters. They did not. They were told that the men were insurgents and were told to take them out.
They did not have the comfort of, skewed, hindsight.
As for them laughing. Min in combat develop a gallows sense of humour to survive. It Shields the mind from the horror they see.
Just have a beer with a bunch of Cops, Firefighters, Nurses, or Doctors and you will see the same thing.
I'm not sure who called the Kent state students traitors. I would say, just misguided kids who listened to much to their lefty professors. they were volatile times. and the argument if an order was even given to fire is still in dispute.
Kent state students traitors. No. Jane Fonda, don't get me started.
I find your incite amazing. you only know me from 2 emails. yet you know my mind and even what my "side", whoever they are, thinks and believes.
Just to be clear I don't have a side. I try to look at all situations and get enough info to make my own opinion. People have been able to do that for quiet some time in our society. And I wish more would try it.
Your question about the poppy crops is misinformed.
the crops are allowed to grow because they are the only source of income for the farmers. Not very good crop land, Afghanistan.
After the farmers are paid by the Taliban, then the troops go after the opium and the drug warlords. Canadian troops have been taking this tact for the last few years and it is very successful. the farmers are happy and welcome the protection of the troops and the drug warlords are being taken out.
Ask your local junkie what has happened to the price of a point of Heroin in the last few years.
as for the "your president" stuff. don't know where you are from but I don't have a President. Just a Prime Minister and a Queen. No jokes boys.
Bear--On 23 October 2010 16:13, THE ANNOINTED ONE <markmkahle@gmail.com> wrote:
Bear,
I can see where the video of a US gunship helicopter crew laughing
while gunning down two Reuters reporters might be a bit embarrassing
to "y'all" that back such secret things. Where are those crewmen
today ?? Prison ? Nah, looking for the next innocent victims ? Why yes
they are. So much for your sense of righteous justness.
Just as there is a human cost to prosecuting a war there is a human
cost to ending one by simply bringing all that happens there to the
light of day. I remind you of Kent State... those people were also
called "Traitors".
The fact that "your side" is made "uncomfortable" about your own
actions and those of the people you "use" does not make "the other
side" less correct in their actions when following THEIR core beliefs.
Why haven't you destroyed the poppy crops and ended the main source of
income for the bad guys in Afghanistan ??
To paraphrase one of your presidents... 'we can't do that to those
poor farmers.' Well those poor farmers make about 2-300 dollars a
year... to pay them all that same wage after destroying the poppies
would cost far less than waging this war.... it is common knowledge...
yet the poppies grow... just what is the REAL reason you continue the
slaughter and the expenditures??
On Oct 23, 1:57 pm, Bear Bear <thatbear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh my dear One.
> "if you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to fear" has been the
> trope of dictatorships though out history.
> Just ask yourself. Are you a criminal. I will assume no. So, when are you
> going to go down to the Police division and give them the keys to your
> house. and all your passwords? After all if you have nothing to hid or be
> ashamed of there is "no threat".
>
> as for the pentagon. that was the comment on the first batch. no this batch,
> since they haven't seen all the files yet.
> And. They were wrong about eh first batch. Just days after the "leak" an
> Afgani who was helping the allies was taken from his home and murdered. The
> BBC has reported that several more that were mentioned in the file, whether
> by name or by revealing enough info to figure out who they are, have been
> threatened as have their families.
>
> Assange has blood on his hands. And should be hiding.
> Preferably in a box 6 foot down.
>
> Bear
>
> ...> On 23 October 2010 13:58, THE ANNOINTED ONE <markmka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Bear,
>
> > If you do nothing that needs to be hidden or that you are ashamed of
> > there is no threat. The official Pentagon comment on the last release
> > was that it contained nothing of importance. Just how is releasing
> > "nothing of importance" (a seemingly small fact left out of your
> > posted article) the act of a traitor??
>
> > Further, US law, US tradition, US ideals and or anything else US
> > applies only on US soil. Live with it.
>
> > On Oct 23, 11:33 am, Bear Bear <thatbear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > A surprisingly frank, for the times, look at the idiot behind Wikileaks.
>
> > > Personally I think the guy is a traitor. My lefty neighbour says he is
> > not a
> > > traitor as he leaked U.S. documents and he is an Aussie.
> > > Well, the Australians have soldiers in this war too. And his actions have
> > > endangered them. As well as my Canadian countrymen and friends serving in
> > > Afghanistan.
>
> > > He is paranoid about the CIA. (time for the aluminum foil hat?) But, one
> > of
> > > these days he is going to leak the wrong file and insult the Taliban and
> > > their friends in the west. Then he will see just what it is like to be on
> > > the run. And will probably then want the U.S. or Britain to protect him.
>
> > > Bear
>
> > > WikiLeaks Founder on the Run, Chased by Turmoil By JOHN F.
> > > BURNS<
> >http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/john_f_b..
> > .>and
> > > RAVI SOMAIYA Published:
> > > October 23, 2010
>
> > > LONDON — Julian Assange moves like a hunted man. In a noisy Ethiopian
> > > restaurant in London's rundown Paddington district, he pitches his voice
> > > barely above a whisper to foil the Western intelligence agencies he
> > fears.
>
> > > He demands that his dwindling number of loyalists use expensive encrypted
> > > cellphones and swaps his own as other men change shirts. He checks into
> > > hotels under false names, dyes his hair, sleeps on sofas and floors, and
> > > uses cash instead of credit cards, often borrowed from friends.
>
> > > "By being determined to be on this path, and not to compromise, I've
> > wound
> > > up in an extraordinary situation," Mr. Assange said over lunch last
> > Sunday,
> > > when he arrived sporting a woolen beanie and a wispy stubble and trailing
> > a
> > > youthful entourage that included a filmmaker assigned to document any
> > > unpleasant surprises.
>
> > > In his remarkable journey to notoriety, Mr. Assange, founder of the
> > > WikiLeaks<
> >http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/w/w..
> > .>whistle-blowers'
> > > Web site, sees the next few weeks as his most hazardous.
> > > Now he is making his most brazen disclosure yet: 391,832 secret documents
> > on
> > > the Iraq war. He held a news conference in London on Saturday, saying
> > that
> > > the release "constituted the most comprehensive and detailed account of
> > any
> > > war ever to have entered the public record."
>
> > > Twelve weeks earlier, he posted on his organization's Web site some
> > 77,000
> > > classified Pentagon documents on the Afghan conflict.
>
> > > Much has changed since 2006, when Mr. Assange, a 39-year-old Australian,
> > > used years of computer hacking and what friends call a near genius I.Q.
> > to
> > > establish WikiLeaks, redefining whistle-blowing by gathering secrets in
> > > bulk, storing them beyond the reach of governments and others determined
> > to
> > > retrieve them, then releasing them instantly, and globally.
>
> > > Now it is not just governments that denounce him: some of his own
> > comrades
> > > are abandoning him for what they see as erratic and imperious behavior,
> > and
> > > a nearly delusional grandeur unmatched by an awareness that the digital
> > > secrets he reveals can have a price in flesh and blood.
>
> > > Several WikiLeaks colleagues say he alone decided to release the Afghan
> > > documents without removing the names of Afghan intelligence sources
> > > for NATO<
> >http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/n..
> > .>troops.
> > > "We were very, very upset with that, and with the way he spoke about
> > > it afterwards," said Birgitta Jonsdottir, a core WikiLeaks volunteer and
> > a
> > > member of Iceland's Parliament. "If he could just focus on the important
> > > things he does, it would be better."
>
> > > He is also being investigated in connection with accusations of rape and
> > > molestation involving two Swedish women. Mr. Assange denied the
> > allegations,
> > > saying the relations were consensual. But prosecutors in Sweden have yet
> > to
> > > formally approve charges or dismiss the case eight weeks after the
> > > complaints against Mr. Assange were filed, damaging his quest for a
> > secure
> > > base for himself and WikiLeaks. Though he characterizes the claims as "a
> > > smear campaign," the scandal has compounded the pressures of his cloaked
> > > life.
>
> > > "When it comes to the point where you occasionally look forward to being
> > in
> > > prison on the basis that you might be able to spend a day reading a book,
> > > the realization dawns that perhaps the situation has become a little more
> > > stressful than you would like," he said over the London lunch.
>
> > > *Exposing Secrets*
>
> > > Mr. Assange has come a long way from an unsettled childhood in Australia
> > as
> > > a self-acknowledged social misfit who narrowly avoided prison after being
> > > convicted on 25 charges of computer hacking in 1995. History is
> > punctuated
> > > by spies, defectors and others who revealed the most inflammatory secrets
> > of
> > > their age. Mr. Assange has become that figure for the Internet era, with
> > as
> > > yet unreckoned consequences for himself and for the keepers of the
> > world's
> > > secrets.
>
> > > "I've been waiting 40 years for someone to disclose information on a
> > scale
> > > that might really make a difference," said Daniel
> > > Ellsberg<
> >http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/e/daniel_e...>,
> > > who exposed a 1,000-page secret study of the Vietnam War in 1971 that
> > became
> > > known as the Pentagon Papers.
>
> > > Mr. Ellsberg said he saw kindred spirits in Mr. Assange and Pfc. Bradley
> > > Manning<
> >http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/bradley_...>,
> > > the 22-year-old former Army intelligence operative under detention in
> > > Quantico, Va., suspected of leaking the Iraq and Afghan documents.
>
> > > "They were willing to go to prison for life, or be executed, to put out
> > this
> > > information," Mr. Ellsberg said.
>
> > > Underlying Mr. Assange's anxieties is deep uncertainty about what the
> > United
> > > States and its allies may do next. Pentagon and Justice department
> > officials
> > > have said they are weighing his actions under the 1917 Espionage Act.
> > They
> > > have demanded that Mr. Assange "return" all government documents in his
> > > possession, undertake not to publish any new ones and not "solicit"
> > further
> > > American materials.
>
> > > Mr. Assange has responded by going on the run, but has found no refuge.
> > Amid
> > > the Afghan documents controversy, he flew to Sweden, seeking a residence
> > > permit and protection under that country's broad press freedoms. His
> > initial
> > > welcome was euphoric.
>
> > > "They called me the James Bond of journalism," he recalled wryly. "It got
> > me
> > > a lot of fans, and some of them ended up causing me a bit of trouble."
>
> > > In late September, he left Stockholm for Berlin. A bag he checked on the
> > > almost empty flight disappeared, with three encrypted laptops. It has not
> > > resurfaced; Mr. Assange suspects it was intercepted. From Germany, he
> > > traveled to London, wary at being detained on arrival. Iceland, a country
> > > with generous press freedoms , has also lost its appeal, with Mr. Assange
> > > concluding that its government is too easily influenced by Washington.
>
> > > He faces attack from within, too.
>
> > > After the Sweden scandal, strains within WikiLeaks reached a breaking
> > point,
> > > with some of Mr. Assange's closest collaborators publicly defecting. The
> > New
> > > York Times spoke with dozens of people who have worked with and supported
> > > him in Iceland, Sweden, Germany, Britain and the United States. What
> > emerged
> > > was a picture of the founder of WikiLeaks as its prime innovator and
> > > charismatic force but as someone whose growing celebrity has been matched
> > by
> > > an increasingly dictatorial, eccentric and capricious style.
>
> > > *Internal Turmoil*
>
> > > Effectively, as Mr. Assange pursues his fugitive's life, his leadership
> > is
> > > enforced over the Internet. Even remotely, his style is imperious. When
> > > Herbert Snorrason, a 25-year-old political activist in Iceland,
> > questioned
> > > Mr. Assange's judgment over a number of issues in an online exchange last
> > > month, Mr. Assange was uncompromising. "I don't like your tone," he said,
> > > according to a transcript. "If it continues, you're out."
>
> > > Mr. Assange cast himself as indispensable. "I am the heart
>
>
> read more »
--
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--
Mark M. Kahle H.
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