Re: 2011.10.28 DETROIT - MODEL FOR THE FUTURE? - NOT!

Good Morning PlainOl!

 

Herein lies I think the divergence of opinion:

 

You Wrote:

 

"Your camp, however, thinks that it's because they hate our freedom and success and are trying to rule our nation. One has to only look at the actions of the US military to see who is trying to rule who."

 

=======

Dr. Paul said:

 

"To declare war on 1.2 billion Muslims and say all Muslims are the same, this is dangerous talk. Yeah, there are some radicals. But they don't come here to kill us because we're free and prosperous. Do they go to Switzerland and Sweden? I mean, that's absurd. If you think that's the reason, we have no chance of winning this. They come here and they explicitly explain it to us. The CIA has explained it to us. They said they come here and want to do us harm because we're bombing them."

 

==========

 

Let's stick on the same premise here for a moment, and keep the discussion to the United States, as compared to Switzerland and Sweden.   In particular,  Sweden.

 

As you pointed out, neither of these Nation-States spend money on foreign involvement like the United States.   Sweden is lost PlainOl.   I don't think it can change course.  It will soon be a Nation that is governed under Sharia Law and will be a predominately theological Islamic Nation-State probably during yous and my lifetime.  So will most of Europe.   (I think Switzerland is an exception, because it has rather strict immigration laws, and like you pointed out, the Swiss are armed to the teeth).

 

Paul is naive, and his statement above makes my point.   We are under attack, and it doesn't matter whether we were, "intervening" as Dr. Paul, and his minsinformed cult of followers would frame it or not.   The current Islamic leadership that would like to see a global "Dar al Islam" do in fact resent our freedoms and successes.  This is the whole issue of what you are missing, and I don't know how to convince you, and other crackpots and Moonbats of the threat.   Open your eyes!  Muslims who are in control right now, are fundamentalist in their thinking.  Anyone who is not of that mindset, whether they are Islamic or not Islamic,  are infidels.  The term "Infidel"  includes what we might term, "Moderate Muslims".     The current leadership of Islam have a disdain for anything "Western".  They reject the McDonaldization of the World, and hate the bright colors, the brand names,  e.g.; anything that is remotely considered Western.   This is not just Israel and the United States we are talkiing about, they hate the names, Bosch,  BMW,  Mercedes,  Siemens,  BP,  Royal Dutch Shell,  or any Western identified MWO's.   

 

 

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 2:42 PM, plainolamerican <plainolamerican@gmail.com> wrote:

I understand the threat that Islam and its
leadership poses to the world.

---
yeah, sharia law and governance ... I get it
imo - our legal system shouldn't use sharia or any other religious
law. The USA is a secular nation.
That many european and middle eastern countries, like Israel and
India, do is their business

 Again,  Dr. Paul indicated last night that
he doesn't understand this threat.

---
he understands the difference between a potential threat, a real one
and a fear of islam.
We are being invaded every day by foreign hispanics from the south and
you're worried about the muzzies?

There was one comment he made about how
Islam doesn't attack Switzerland or Sweden......I broke out laughing!

----
the statement:
Rep. Paul stressed that Santorum's claim that Islamic theology is
founded upon killing everyone is not based in reality: "To declare war
on 1.2 billion Muslims and say all Muslims are the same, this is
dangerous talk. Yeah, there are some radicals. But they don't come
here to kill us because we're free and prosperous. Do they go to
Switzerland and Sweden? I mean, that's absurd. If you think that's the
reason, we have no chance of winning this. They come here and they
explicitly explain it to us. The CIA has explained it to us. They said
they come here and want to do us harm because we're bombing them."

S&S do get attacked by terrorists, like many countries, but
Switzerland does not send troops to intervene in other nations.
Switzerland does not spend tens of billions of dollars yearly to fund
dictators around the world, nor did Switzerland donate hundreds of
billions of dollars to the Warsaw Pact through bank "loans."
Switzerland does not send billions of dollars worth of weaponry every
year to the warring tribes in the Middle East . Switzerland has no
enemies. Yet the Swiss are armed to the teeth and dug into every hill
and under every building.

US policy is the evil-parallel-universe inverse of the Swiss. The US
intervenes everywhere, spies on everyone, supports every faction in
every dispute. We have as many enemies as there are disputatious
people in the world. Yet we spend more effort on disarming our own
airline pilots and other law-abiding citizens than on providing
shelters for our children against nuclear, chemical, or biological
attack. We have an expensive conventional army, and quite a few aging
offensive nuclear weapons.

In a perfect world,  Dr. Paul's logic is.....Logical.   Unfortunately,
Dr.
Paul is just flat out naive regarding foreign policy and world
affairs.

---
naive about what?
His opinion, like that of many Americans, is that our occupation and
interference in their government is the cause of their disdain or
hatred. Your camp, however, thinks that it's because they hate our
freedom and success and are trying to rule our nation. One has to only
look at the actions of the US military to see who is trying to rule
who.

I am rushed this morning, but I will follow up with examples of what I
speak of, and attempt to demonstrate why the term "Neo-Con"  is so
misplaced by Ron Paul and his misinformed supporters.

---
it's not misplaced ... it's accurate
the term and members have changed over time a bit but
'neoconservatives' currently includes those who support spreading
democracy at the end of a gun, support israel, and want to keep any
potential national adversary in the cross-hairs so they can feel safe
while plundering resources and replacing leaders, regardless of the
failure of the policy.

On Dec 16, 8:44 am, Keith In Tampa <keithinta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good Morning PlainOl,
>
> Your Wiki article is thoughtful, and usually I don't use Wiki for examples
> of political theory.
>
> I have no hatred of Islam.   I have studied Islam,  long before the
> September 11, 2001 tragedy, and I understand the threat that Islam and its
> leadership poses to the world.  Again,  Dr. Paul indicated last night that
> he doesn't understand this threat.  There was one comment he made about how
> Islam doesn't attack Switzerland or Sweden......I broke out laughing!
>
> In a perfect world,  Dr. Paul's logic is.....Logical.   Unfortunately, Dr.
> Paul is just flat out naive regarding foreign policy and world affairs.
>
> I am rushed this morning, but I will follow up with examples of what I
> speak of, and attempt to demonstrate why the term "Neo-Con"  is so
> misplaced by Ron Paul and his misinformed supporters.
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:30 PM, plainolamerican

> <plainolameri...@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Again,  I don't think you know what a NeoCon is.
> > ---
> > I do and you have already admitted that you don't
> > here's a primer ... read it thoroughly
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism
>
> >   You have been filled
> > with such hatred and misinformation
> > ---
> > cite specific hatred
> > you're the one with a hatred for islam ... a religion with just as
> > many kooks as xianity and judaism
>
> > On Dec 14, 5:04 pm, Keith In Tampa <keithinta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Again,  I don't think you know what a NeoCon is.   You have been filled
> > > with such hatred and misinformation, that you wouldn't know the truth if
> > it
> > > hit you right square in the ass.
>
> > > On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 3:56 PM, plainolamerican
> > > <plainolameri...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > > > Your views on isolationism,
> > > > ---
> > > > I don't advocate isolationism ... but you do advocate imperialism
>
> > > >  extremism,
> > > > ---
> > > > exemplified by the US invasion of the middle east
>
> > > >  and anti-semitism are noted.
> > > > ---
> > > > you're accusation has been noted ... so has has your allegiance to the
> > > > imperialist warmongering zionist neocons
>
> > > > On Dec 14, 2:02 pm, Keith In Tampa <keithinta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Your views on isolationism,  extremism, and anti-semitism are noted.
>
> > > > > On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 11:53 AM, plainolamerican <
> > > > plainolameri...@gmail.com
>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > there is no socialist-elitist Democrat who is
> > > > > > going to bring prosperity to any community,  State,  region or on
> > the
> > > > > > federal level
> > > > > > ---
> > > > > > agreed
>
> > > > > > then there's the waste of our nation's wealth and soldiers on other
> > > > > > countries (interventionism) at the hands of the republicans and
> > > > > > democrats
>
> > > > > > vote for Ron Paul and rebuild America as a powerhouse, without
> > > > > > imperialist warmongering
>
> > > > > > On Dec 14, 9:57 am, Keith In Tampa <keithinta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > The bottom line, is that there is no socialist-elitist Democrat
> > who
> > > > is
> > > > > > > going to bring prosperity to any community,  State,  region or
> > on the
> > > > > > > federal level.  The socialist-elitist Democrats have not brought
> > any
> > > > new
> > > > > > > ideas or thoughts to the table in over seventy years.  It is a
> > broken
> > > > > > down
> > > > > > > simplistic, "Help Your Fellow Man"  theory that again, is broken
> > and
> > > > will
> > > > > > > not work in any Nation, State or community.   It has failed
> > > > miserably,
> > > > > >  but
> > > > > > > yet socialist Elitist Democrats,  (*e.g.;*  they are either
> > Moonbats
> > > > or
> > > > > > > they are Anti-American, one of the two and there is no other
> > > > explanation
> > > > > > > for anyone being a Democrat anymore)  continue to believe that
> > > > Marxism,
> > > > > > > Maoism, Stalinism,  Trotskyism,  Communism, et. al, are all
> > really
> > > > > > > wonderful systems of social, economic and political justice,  we
> > just
> > > > > > > haven't had the right folks implementing these systems yet.
>
> > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 10:50 AM, <drob...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > > The corruption and devastation certainly became palpable with
> > > > Coleman
> > > > > > > > Young, but let's not forget the contribution from Jennifer
> > > > Granholm and
> > > > > > > > Kwame Kilpatrick.
>
> > > > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > > > *From: *"Keith In Tampa" <keithinta...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > *To: *politicalforum@googlegroups.com
> > > > > > > > *Sent: *Wednesday, December 14, 2011 10:42:24 AM
> > > > > > > > *Subject: *Re: 2011.10.28 DETROIT - MODEL FOR THE FUTURE? -
> > NOT!
>
> > > > > > > > Frosty Woolridge hit the nail on the head in this column.
> >  Thanks
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > sharing Travis.  I hope everyone takes the time to read the
> > column.
>
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:43 PM, Travis <baconl...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >>  ** **
>
> > > > > > > >> A quick check of google,  indicates that Detroit has NEVER
> > had a
> > > > > > > >> conservative mayor!****
> > > > > > > >>  ------------------------------
>
> > > > > > > >> ** **
>
> > > > > > > >> Don't think this could not happen elsewhere.****
>
> > > > > > > >>  ****
>
> > > > > > > >> *DETROIT**  -  A MODEL FOR THE FUTURE?* ****
>
> > > > > > > >>                 [image:
> > > > cid:ECB352C5B1944AEFB58352952FC313C3@ownerPC]
> > > > > > > >> Frosty Wooldridge *(born 1947)* is a US journalist,
> > > > > > > >> writer, environmentalist, traveler.****
>
> > > > > > > >> DETROIT
> > > > > > > >> By Frosty Wooldridge****
>
> > > > > > > >> For 15 years, from the mid 1970's to 1990, I worked in
> > Detroit,
> > > > > > Michigan.
> > > > > > > >> I watched it descend into the abyss of crime, debauchery, gun
> > > > play,
> > > > > > > >> drugs, school truancy, car-jacking, gangs and human
> > depravity. I
> > > > > > watched
> > > > > > > >> entire city blocks burned out. I watched graffiti explode on
> > > > > > buildings,
> > > > > > > >> cars, trucks, buses and school yards. Trash everywhere!****
>
> > > > > > > >> [image: cid:X.MA2.1312373...@aol.com]****
>
> > > > > > > >> Detroiters walked through it, tossed more into it, and
> > ignored it.
> > > > > > Tens
> > > > > > > >> of thousands, and then hundreds of thousands today exist on
> > > > federal
> > > > > > > >> welfare, free housing, and food stamps!****
>
> > > > > > > >> *With Aid to Dependent Children, minority women birthed 8 to
> > 10
> > > > and in
> > > > > > > >> one case, one woman birthed 24 children as reported by the
> > Detroit
> > > > > > Free
> > > > > > > >> Press, all on American taxpayer dollars.*****
>
> > > > > > > >> [image: cid:X.MA3.1312373...@aol.com]****
>
> > > > > > > >> A new child meant a new car payment, new TV, and whatever mom
> > > > wanted.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > >> saw Lyndon Johnson's 'Great Society' flourish in Detroit . If
> > you
> > > > give
> > > > > > > >> money for doing nothing, you will get more hands out taking
> > money
> > > > for
> > > > > > doing
> > > > > > > >> nothing.****
>
> > > > > > > >> Mayor Coleman Young, perhaps the most corrupt mayor in
> > America,
> > > > > > outside
> > > > > > > >> of Richard Daley in Chicago, rode Detroit down to its
> > knees... He
> > > > set
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >> benchmark for cronyism, incompetence, and arrogance. As a
> > black
> > > > man,
> > > > > > he
> > > > > > > >> said, "I am the MFIC." The IC meant "in charge".
> > > > > > > >> [image: cid:X.MA4.1312373...@aol.com]
> > > > > > > >> You can figure out the rest. Detroit became a majority black
> > city
> > > > > > with 67
> > > > > > > >> percent African-Americans.****
>
> > > > > > > >> As a United Van Lines truck driver for my summer job from
> > teaching
> > > > > > math
> > > > > > > >> and science, I loaded hundreds of American families into my
> > van
> > > > for a
> > > > > > new
> > > > > > > >> life in another city or state.****
>
> > > > > > > >> Detroit plummeted from 1.8 million citizens to 912,000 today.
> > At
> > > > the
> > > > > > > >> same time, legal and illegal immigrants converged on the city
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > > >> free government hand outs, so much so, that Muslims number
> > over
> > > > > > 300,000.
> > > > > > > >> Mexicans number 400,000 throughout Michigan, but most work in
> > > > Detroit.
> > > > > > > >> As the whites moved out, the Muslims moved in.
> > > > > > > >> [image: cid:X.MA5.1312373...@aol.com]
> > > > > > > >> As the crimes became more violent, the whites fled. Finally,
> > > > unlawful
> > > > > > > >> Mexicans moved in at a torrid pace. Detroit suffers so much
> > > > > > shoplifting
> > > > > > > >> that grocery stores no longer operate in many inner city
> > > > locations.
> > > > > > You
> > > > > > > >> could cut the racial tension in the air with a knife! Detroit
> > may
> > > > be
> > > > > > one of
> > > > > > > >> our best examples of multiculturalism: pure dislike, and total
> > > > > > separation
> > > > > > > >> from America.****
>
> > > > > > > >> Today, you hear Muslim calls to worship over the city like a
> > new
> > > > > > American
> > > > > > > >> Baghdad with hundreds of Islamic mosques in Michigan, paid
> > for by
> > > > > > Saudi
> > > > > > > >> Arabia oil money. High school flunk out rates reached 76
> > percent
> > > > last
> > > > > > June,
> > > > > > > >> according to NBC's Brian Williams. Classrooms resemble more
> > > > foreign
> > > > > > > >> countries than America. English? Few speak it! The city
> > features
> > > > a 50
> > > > > > > >> percent illiteracy rate and growing.
> > > > > > > >> [image: cid:X.MA6.1312373...@aol.com]
> > > > > > > >> Unemployment hit 28.9 percent in 2009 as the auto industry
> > > > vacated the
> > > > > > > >> city. In Time Magazine's October 4, 2009, "The Tragedy of
> > Detroit:
> > > > > > How a
> > > > > > > >> great city fell, and how it can rise again," I choked on the
> > > > writer's
> > > > > > > >> description of what happened. "If Detroit had been ravaged by
> > a
> > > > > > hurricane,
> > > > > > > >> and submerged by a ravenous flood, we'd know a lot more about
> > it,"
> > > > > > > >> Said Daniel Okrent. "If drought and carelessness had spread
> > brush
> > > > > > fires
> > > > > > > >> across the city, we'd see it on the evening news every night."
> > > > > >  Earthquake,
> > > > > > > >> tornadoes, you name it, if natural disaster had devastated the
> > > > city
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >> was once the living proof of American prosperity, the rest of
> > the
> > > > > > country
> > > > > > > >> might take notice.
> > > > > > > >> [image: cid:X.MA7.1312373...@aol.com]
> > > > > > > >> But Detroit, once our fourth largest city, now 11th and
> > slipping
> > > > > > rapidly,
> > > > > > > >> has had no such luck.****
>
> > > > > > > >> Its disaster has long been a slow unwinding that seemed to
> > remove
> > > > it
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > >> the rest of the country.  Even the death rattle that in the
> > past
> > > > year
> > > > > > > >> emanated from its signature industry brought more attention
> > to the
> > > > > > auto
> > > > > > > >> executives than to the people of the city, who had for so long
> > > > been
> > > > > > > >> victimized by their dreadful decisions making.
>
> > > > > > > >> [image: cid:X.MA8.1312373...@aol.com]
> > > > > > > >> As Coleman Young's corruption brought the city to its knees,
> > no
> > > > > > amount of
> > > > > > > >> federal dollars could save the incredible payoffs, kickbacks
> > and
> > > > > > illegality
> > > > > > > >> permeating his administration. I witnessed the city's death
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > > seat
> > > > > > > >> of my 18-wheeler tractor trailer because I moved people out of
> > > > every
> > > > > > sector
> > > > > > > >> of decaying Detroit.****
>
> > > > > > > >> "By any quantifiable standard, the city is on life support.
> > > > Detroit 's
> > > > > > > >> treasury is $300 million short of the funds needed to provide
> > the
> > > > > > barest
> > > > > > > >> municipal services," Okrent said. "The school system, which
> > six
> > > > years
> > > > > > ago
> > > > > > > >> was compelled by the teachers' union to reject a
> > philanthropist's
> > > > > > offer of
> > > > > > > >> $200 million to build 15 small, independent charter high
> > schools,
> > > > is
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > >> receivership.****
>
> > > > > > > >> The murder rate is soaring, and 7 out of 10 remain unsolved.
> > Three
> > > > > > years
> > > > > > > >> after Katrina devastated New Orleans , unemployment in that
> > city
> > > > hit
> > > > > > a peak
> > > > > > > >> of 11%. In Detroit today, the unemployment rate is 28.9%.
> > That's
> > > > worth
> > > > > > > >> spelling out: twenty-eight point nine percent. ****
>
> > > ...
>
> > > read more »
>
> > --
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