Re: Were Nazi Soldiers Heroes?

imperialist

On Jun 1, 7:09 pm, Keith In Tampa <keithinta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 11:47 PM, plainolamerican <plainolameri...@gmail.com
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> > wrote:
> > There were very few German soldiers that were NAZI Party members
> > ---
> > the german soldiers have to own what they did ... just as American
> > soldiers have to take responsibility for what they're doing to the
> > people in the middle east.
>
> > warmongers and mercenaries beware!
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> > On May 31, 11:43 am, THE ANNOINTED ONE <markmka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > There were very few German soldiers that were NAZI Party members. The
> > > Nazis were a "minority" party that took control of the government by
> > > applying the existing bureaucratic rules and petty jealousies
> > > rigorously in the 30s.
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> > > On May 30, 5:19 pm, MJ <micha...@america.net> wrote:
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> > > > Wednesday, May 30, 2012Were Nazi Soldiers Heroes?by Jacob G. Hornberger
> > > > Have you ever noticed that Nazi soldiers, especially those who died in
> > World War II, are never celebrated as heroes? Why is that? Didn t they
> > answer the call of their government in time of war? Didn t they serve their
> > country by loyally obeying the dictates of their government? Weren t they
> > patriots for their willingness to fight and die for their country?
> > > > I m not talking about soldiers who committed war crimes or who
> > participated in the Holocaust. I m talking about ordinary German soldiers,
> > many of whom were civilians before the war started, who fought Allied
> > forces in North Africa, at the Battle of the Bulge, on the Eastern front,
> > and elsewhere.
> > > > Why aren t those Nazi soldiers treated as heroes? Didn t some of them
> > fight as courageously and heroically as British, Soviet, or American
> > soldiers? Why are they not honored as heroes as much as Allied soldiers are?
> > > > Indeed, why aren t German citizens during World War II honored for
> > having come to the support of their government during a time of war? Didn t
> > the German people do what citizens are supposed to do? Sure, Germany ended
> > up losing the war but no one can say that the average German citizen didn t
> > do everything he could to win the war.
> > > > Yesterday, theWashington Timeswent on the attackagainst MSNBC host
> > Chris Hayes for questioning the automatic invocation of the term heroes to
> > describe American soldiers who have died in America s many wars.
> > TheTimeswrote:The word heroes has been used to describe America s fallen
> > for more than 200 years. It s not rhetorically proximate to justifications
> > for war but a traditional mark of gratitude and respect for the sacrifice
> > made by the person who was killed and the family members left behind. It s
> > a way of recognizing that regardless of how a person died, he did so in
> > service to the country. It s not a glorification of war but a solemn
> > acknowledgment of sacrifice.What s not clear from theTimesposition,
> > however, is whether the principles it enunciates apply only American
> > soldiers or to soldiers in every country. Applying the standard set forth
> > by theTimes,would it be appropriate for Germans to use the word heroes to
> > describe Germany s fallen in the many wars in which Germany has been
> > involved, including World War II? Could it be said that describing Nazi
> > soldiers killed in World War II as heroes would not serve to justify World
> > War II but instead serve simply as a mark of gratitude and respect for the
> > sacrifice made by the German soldier who was killed and the family members
> > left behind? Could it be said that this would just be a way to recognize
> > that regardless of how the Nazi soldier died, he did so in service to his
> > country? Could it be said that describing the Nazi soldier as a hero would
> > not be a glorification of war but rather a solemn acknowledgement of
> > sacrifice?
> > > > In other words, would theTimesapply its principles regarding war,
> > soldiers, heroism, and patriotism only to the United States or universally?
> > > > Or do they apply only to the winners? Do they apply, for example, to
> > the Soviet Union, one of the winners of World War II, which was governed by
> > a brutal communist regime during the war and for decades afterward, a
> > regime that oppressed Jews and others and kept Eastern Europe under its
> > iron boot for decades after the end of the war. Were communist soldiers
> > opposing Nazi soldiers heroes for serving their government during time of
> > war? Were they heroes for their willingness to die to ensure that their
> > country remained under communist rule rather than Nazi rule?
> > > > Indeed, how would theTimesapply its principles to the Vietnam War, a
> > war that the United States lost? Surely, it would say that American
> > soldiers who served in Vietnam or who died there were heroes, except
> > perhaps for the ones who committed war crimes. Would it say the same about
> > North Vietnamese communist soldiers or about the Viet Cong?
> > > > It seems to me that the reason that Nazi soldiers have never been
> > honored as heroes is because the world has long held Germany to a different
> > standard than the one that theWashington Timesapplies to the United States.
> > Both German soldiers and the German citizenry should have made a critical
> > examination of what their government was doing and realized that their
> > government was in the wrong. On reaching that determination, it was the
> > duty of the individual soldier to refuse to participate in the military,
> > and it was the duty of the citizen to oppose his government, even in time
> > of war.
> > > > Obviously, the Nazi government didn t take that position. Its position
> > was that it is the solemn duty of the citizen to come to the support of his
> > government in time of crisis or war. The Hitler regime viewed the citizen
> > who joined the Nazi armed forces as a hero for his willingness to fight and
> > die for his country. The German people who supported the troops and the
> > rest of the government were looked upon as patriots.
> > > > Isn t that the same standard adhered to by many Americans with respect
> > to America s wars, soldiers, and citizenry?
> > > > There were some German citizens who said no. Among them were Hans and
> > Sophie Scholl and the members of a secret organization called the White
> > Rose. Their position on patriotism was entirely different from the official
> > one. They felt that it was the duty of a citizen to make a critical
> > examination of his government s policies. That s what the White Rose
> > members did, and they concluded that the Nazi government was in the wrong.
> > Thus, the White Rose group not only opposed their government in the middle
> > of World War II, they also exhorted the German citizenry, including German
> > soldiers, to rise up and overthrow the Hitler regime.
> > > > Not surprisingly, the German authorities considered the White Rose
> > members to be bad people and unpatriotic Germans, which is why they
> > executed them. Personally,I happen to believethat they were among the most
> > courageous and heroic people in history.
> > > > In 1951, during the Korean War, Leonard E. Read, the founder of The
> > Foundation for Economic Education, wrote one of the most thought-provoking
> > essays ever written, entitled.Conscience on the Battlefield. In that essay,
> > Read stated that from a moral standpoint, no soldier can ever escape the
> > consequences of his individual actions during war simply by later telling
> > God that he was following orders or loyally serving his government during
> > time of war. It was incumbent on each soldier, Read stated, to make a
> > personal determination as to whether the killing he was ordered to do was
> > morally justified and could be reconciled with the soldier s individual
> > conscience.
> > > > In my opinion, Read and the White Rose people had it right. The
> > genuine patriot stands and fights for his government when it is right and
> > he refuses to support it and even opposes it when it is in the wrong. That
> > s the type of courage and heroism that enlightens a country, not the blind
> > type of my government, right or wrong type of patriotism and heroism that
> > afflicted Nazi Germany and that continues to afflict people in many other
> > countries today.http://www.fff.org/blog/jghblog2012-05-30.asp
>
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