You quote a nice document but that document IS NOT LAW, nor is it CONSTITUTIONAL. That document was a call to war for disenfranchised colonists.
THIS is the meaning of that tiny recurring phrase "the people" which you seem so fast to dismiss.
It did not cover the French or the Mexican just "The People" subject to EVERY following phrase and clause and those that grew from them.
We the People of the United States
The Framers were an elite group — among the best and brightest America had to offer at the time. But they knew that they were trying to forge a nation made up not of an elite, but of the common man. Without the approval of the common man, they feared revolution. This first part of the Preamble speaks to the common man. It puts into writing, as clear as day, the notion that the people were creating this Constitution. It was not handed down by a god or by a king — it was created by the people.
in Order to form a more perfect Union
The Framers were dissatisfied with the United States under the Articles of Confederation, but they felt that what they had was the best they could have, up to now. They were striving for something better. The Articles of Confederation had been a grand experiment that had worked well up to a point, but now, less than ten years into that experiment, cracks were showing. The new United States, under this new Constitution, would be more perfect. Not perfect, but more perfect.
establish Justice
Injustice, unfairness of laws and in trade, was of great concern to the people of 1787. People looked forward to a nation with a level playing field, where courts were established with uniformity and where trade within and outside the borders of the country would be fair and unmolested. Today, we enjoy a system of justice that is one of the fairest in the world. It has not always been so — only through great struggle can we now say that every citizen has the opportunity for a fair trial and for equal treatment, and even today there still exists discrimination. But we still strive for the justice that the Framers wrote about.
insure domestic Tranquility
One of the events that caused the Convention to be held was the revolt of Massachusetts farmers known as Shays' Rebellion. The taking up of arms by war veterans revolting against the state government was a shock to the system. The keeping of the peace was on everyone's mind, and the maintenance of tranquility at home was a prime concern. The framers hoped that the new powers given the federal government would prevent any such rebellions in the future.
provide for the common defence
The new nation was fearful of attack from all sides — and no one state was really capable of fending off an attack from land or sea by itself. With a wary eye on Britain and Spain, and ever-watchful for Indian attack, no one of the United States could go it alone. They needed each other to survive in the harsh world of international politics of the 18th century.
promote the general Welfare
This, and the next part of the Preamble, are the culmination of everything that came before it — the whole point of having tranquility, justice, and defense was to promote the general welfare — to allow every state and every citizen of those states to benefit from what the government could provide. The framers looked forward to the expansion of land holdings, industry, and investment, and they knew that a strong national government would be the beginning of that.
and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity
Hand in hand with the general welfare, the framers looked forward to the blessings of liberty — something they had all fought hard for just a decade before. They were very concerned that they were creating a nation that would resemble something of a paradise for liberty, as opposed to the tyranny of a monarchy, where citizens could look forward to being free as opposed to looking out for the interests of a king. And more than for themselves, they wanted to be sure that the future generations of Americans would enjoy the same.
do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America
The final clause of the Preamble is almost anti-climactic, but it is important for a few reasons — it finishes the "We, the people" thought, saying what we the people are actually doing; it gives us a name for this document, and it restates the name of the nation adopting the Constitution. That the Constitution is "ordained" reminds us of the higher power involved here — not just of a single person or of a king, but of the people themselves. That it is "established" reminds us that it replaces that which came before — the United States under the Articles (a point lost on us today, but quite relevant at the time).
--
<sigh>
You claimed:I simply cited ALL the occurrences of 'Citizen'.
"Also the Constitution and the amendments refer to citizens. Citizens are all persons born or naturalized in the U.S. and subject to the jurisdiction therein. Clearly it does not apply to illegals."
In Article III, the jurisdiction of the supreme Court included matters between "Citizen" and <insert 2nd party>.
ALL people have the SAME right to life and its corollaries. Legitimate Government is to SECURE such. MOST (all) Governments instead violate these with impunity.
NOW are you instead suggesting that Amendment V, for instance:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise
infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand
Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the
Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor
shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in
jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case
to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be
taken for public use, without just compensation.
Somehow applies DIFFERENTLY depending upon your arbitrary groupings? It clearly does not. The US Government (created and defined by the Constitution) is to adhere to its plain language in its dealings.
Regard$,
--MJ
Today, when a concerted effort is made to obliterate this
point, it cannot be repeated too often that the Constitution
is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals
-- that it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals,
only the conduct of the government -- that it is not a charter
_for_ government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection
_against_ the government. -- Alyssa Rosenbaum
At 01:50 PM 10/29/2010, you wrote:
You cited Art III as using the word citizen. I responded to your inclusion. Is it your position that all people (citizens vs non citizens) have equal rights?
----- Original Message -----
From: "MJ" <michaelj@america.net>
To: politicalforum@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 1:41:42 PM
Subject: Re: Tea party antics could end up burning Republicans
Article III deals with the JUDICIARY.
There you go again with that silliness about 'illegals'.
Citizens relate (re: US Constitution) SPECIFICALLY as denoted.
Items like -- for example -- Amendment IV (for simplicity)
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures,
shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon
probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly
describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to
be seized.
restrict the GOVERNMENT from action against PEOPLE -- regardless of
whether they are Citizens, Visitors, have the Government's unconstitutional
permission, etc. It plainly LIMITS the Feds from doing as stated.
Naturalization (or naturalisation), of course, is the acquisition of
citizenship and nationality by somebody who was not a citizen or
national of that country when he or she was born.
Naturalization has NOTHING to do with entering/exiting.
There was no claim that Citizens were something else.
Regard$,
--MJ
I was about to say that I'd hate to live in a country
where the law could mean whatever its rulers said
it meant, when it occurred to me that I already do.
-- Joseph Sobran
At 01:28 PM 10/29/2010, you wrote:
- Art. III referenced the Constitution and treaties, but was changed by the XI amendment. Citizens do not refer to illegals that roam onto U.S. soil and do not become naturalized.
- ----- Original Message -----
- From: "MJ" <michaelj@america.net>
- To: politicalforum@googlegroups.com
- Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 1:14:13 PM
- Subject: Re: Tea party antics could end up burning Republicans
- This is becoming silly. Have you actually READ the Constitution?
- Occurrences of 'Citizen'
- In Article III (describing JURISDICTION for the supreme Court):
- between a State and Citizens of another State; -- between Citizens
- of different States; -- between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands
- under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens
- thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.
- In Article IV (ensuring reciprocity between States):
- The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges
- and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.
- Amendment XI (more jurisdiction):
- The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to
- any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United
- States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any
- Foreign State.
- Dubiously Ratified Amendment XIV (aiding Lincoln's illusion):
- All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
- subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and
- of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law
- which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United
- States;
- Amendment XV (preventing voting disqualification by group):
- The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be
- denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of
- race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
- Amendment XIX (preventing voting disqualification by group)"
- The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or
- abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
- Amendment XIV (preventing voting disqualification by group):
- The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any
- primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for
- President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in
- Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any
- State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
- Amendment XXVI (preventing voting disqualification by group):
- The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen
- years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the
- United States or by any State on account of age.
- The Constitution, of course, CREATED and LIMITS the Government it created.
- STILL do not know what the Bible has to do with anything.
- Regard$,
- --MJ
- The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. -- James Madison, Federalist Papers
- At 12:53 PM 10/29/2010, you wrote:
- Look at Romans 1:26-27. Also the Constitution and the amendments refer to citizens. Citizens are all persons born or naturalized in the U.S. and subject to the jurisdiction therein. Clearly it does not apply to illegals.
- ----- Original Message -----
- From: "MJ" <michaelj@america.net>
- To: politicalforum@googlegroups.com
- Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 12:01:43 PM
- Subject: Re: Tea party antics could end up burning Republicans
- THIS does not answer the request.
- Someone will need to explain this silliness about 'legal' and 'illegal' immigrants. The US Constitution provides no power whatsoever for the Feds to extend or withhold permission for entry (or exit) into any of the Sovereign States. Besides, 'migration' is a natural right.
- Additionally, rights are inherent in Man's being -- not permissions as you imply.
- Not certain WHAT the Bible may have to do with anything.
- As an aside, do you have any problem/difficulty with the THEFT and SLAVERY promoted by both the Ds and Rs?
- Regard$,
- --MJ
- "Under the law of nature, all men are born free, every one comes into the world with a right to his own person, which includes the liberty of moving and using it at his own will. This is what is called personal liberty, and is given him by the Author of nature, because necessary for his own sustenance." --Thomas Jefferson
- At 11:42 AM 10/29/2010, you wrote:
- What rights do immigrants have unless they are legal? In reference to the Bible have you read the verses on homosexuality?
- ----- Original Message -----
- From: "MJ" <michaelj@america.net>
- To: politicalforum@googlegroups.com
- Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 11:24:30 AM
- Subject: Re: Tea party antics could end up burning Republicans
- Can you POINT me to a 'platform' or similar that suggests such?
- Thanks in advance.
- Regard$,
- --MJ
- "Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error.
- " -- Marcus Tullius Cicero
- At 09:18 AM 10/29/2010, you wrote:
- >But it seems obvious that the biggest reason to vote Democrat is to
- >take one good look at the crazies in the Grand Opressive Tea Party and
- >what they will do to oppresss LGBT people, as well as a whole slew of
- >demographic minority groups, including immigrants, Latinos,
- >African-Americans and women who have been raped or victims of incest.
- >If you don't vote for the Democrats, you are opening the door for
- >bigoted hateful theocrats like the Fred Phelps Wesboro "Church" who
- >totally ignore Jesus' actual message of love, acceptance and inclusion
- >and fail to know what their Bible really says.
- >The Republican Agenda is anti-American. Their number one priority is
- >to obstruct and make The President of The United States fail. Welcome
- >to the Recorporate Party of Greed.
- >
- --
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